How many ARs is to many, these things are so much fun

No number is too great in the current political climate.

Ideally you should have 3. SBR or ""Pistol" AR. Carbine or Mid Length AR, and finally a Rifle length or long range AR. After that you should probably start adding to your pistol and shogun collection.

Hard to think of a more useless firearm than a "Pistol" AR.

nnn

I have to agree with you. That said, I dislike ARs generally so there may be some other bias at work here. I have a CZ Scorpion PCC that I am trying to figure out what the heck I would use it for or do with it so I suppose I can't throw rocks at Casull.

Why do so many people hate Pistol AR's?!?! With a 10.5 inch barrel shooting 55 grn .556 these are devastating weapons at realistic self defense range. They are great for close quarters combat and for use inside of vehicles, they also penetrate armor and have much better ballistics than a pistol caliber.

Well, they're too big to be an effective pistol and too clumsy and inaccurate to be a useful rifle. Other than that, I guess they're fine.

Inaccurate? Somebody still believes barrel length equates to accuracy... Lower velocity and perhaps effective distance? Sure. Inaccurate? Not related.

Also nobody built a pistol ar15 to replace a handgun. They build pistol ar15s as smaller ar15s...

As to the answer to the OP, no number is too great. Gotta get em all!

This. Threepdog mall ninja fudds think that AR pistols are inaccurate because they are short????? Thats because they are the same people who go to the range and only shoot 100 rounds or less, once a month. They have no clue what the actual purpose of an AR pistol is. They clearly don't do any sort of accuracy testing to find a good load for their gun, or take the time to learn the platform well enough to be accurate with it. AND,not everyone wants to ride the NFA train just to have a short semi automatic firearm in a rifle caliber that takes a standard 30 round mag. If they can't see the purpose behind it, save em for me, I'll buy them.

"They have no clue what the actual purpose of an AR pistol is."




If it had an actual purpose (that couldn't be covered better by another firearm), it would have been invented long ago.

It was invented. But it's an NFA firearm. Hellooooo, SBR?????.

Yeah, at least to me, this is horrendous logic. Shorter versions of full size rifles have been around for quite a while, dare I say pretty much as long as cartridges have been around... This is no new concept. Oddly specific and weird workarounds for arbitrary laws notwithstanding, these existed in one form or another. A pistol format is just another variation that sits within the specific laws currently in our country. "Invented" is not really the right word to use here, in my opinion. But you know, opinions are like those things everyone has that stink.

"It was invented. But it's an NFA firearm. Hellooooo, SBR?????."



It's NOT an SBR. If it was, it would have a shoulder stock. More akin to a mare's leg (another basically useless weapon). In other words, a solution looking for a problem. It's a hybrid that doesn't do anything as well as the two things it was conceived from. The AR platform has been around for over 50 years. This "great" hybrid has been around a few years, because it serves no real purpose, other than to look tacticool.

"Shorter versions of full size rifles have been around for quite a while, dare I say pretty much as long as cartridges have been around... This is no new concept."



Yes, shorter versions have been around a while, because they make sense. The bullpup makes sense. The M4 over the M16 makes sense for the job it does. The "pistol AR" does not.

Uhhh...you can shoulder a brace. So its basically an SBR without a stamp. Glad thats the only thing you picked up on, as well as your ignorance of current laws. ATFs current opinion is its fine. So AR pistol with brace=SBR. Your argument is invalid.

And this " It's a hybrid that doesn't do anything as well as the two things it was conceived from." Makes ZERO SENSE. The AR platform serves no purpose?? Want to break it down a little more ?

NOW I GET IT. Lol. You're a TROLL. Haha. Poor guy. Wanna explain why the AR pistol doesn't make sense? And don't give me that crap about a short barrel being inaccurate. Valid reasons.

So a Mk18 makes sense, but a 10.3" barrel mk18 clone with an adjustable brace does not? How does it not "Do anything as well as the two things it was conceived from"? It does it identically well. You would be bending some serious laws of physics to say it somehow performs any differently other than a brace vs stock, both shoulder-able at this current junction, both very similar with modern technology. Same everything except an arbitrary definition of the thing wrapping around the buffer tube.

Defining pistol ar15s differently than short ar15s makes no sense what-so-ever. They are identical other than a work around to fit within the legal requirements of our country. Functionally- identical.

Also what does "It's a hybrid that doesn't do anything as well as the two things it was conceived from." mean? What was a pistol braced ar15 a hybrid of? What were it's 2 parent things that conceived it? An SBR and a Rifle? So much in this...

We agree on one thing- the Mare's Leg is absolutely useless.


Edit to add: Also what problems are inherent there? It is functionally identical to any other ar15, but with a brace instead of a stock... You could say the same about choosing a lesser manufacturer of a stock (or any part for that matter) over another, so that is not inherently a problem with pistol ar15s.

I've got a 12.5inch barrel ar15 pistol chambered in 6.5 grendel.....rounds stay supersonic out to 850 yards and they carry the same energy at the muzzle as 7.62x39 from a 16inch barrel....what were you saying about pistol ar's being useless?

LOL. Just because you like them and I don't see the point, I'm a troll. Well, you all just go back to your lovein with the Pistol AR worship and I'll just keep away from this subject. You all are just a bit too wrapped up with such nonsense for my tastes.

< doesn't own a pistol ar as of now. Just an sbr. So very little bias. Just verifying there is no logical difference between them, thus no functional difference... I think the word nonsense is assigned to when someone has a huge bias towards something with no way to back why they have such a bias... not to someone debating the lack of functional differences between 2 all but identical objects.

Wrong again. You can't provide a reasonable explanation, nor can you put up a valid argument. Bashing something without backing up your opinion is trolling. Not to mention ignoring a lot of whats been posted by others in the thread.

"Wrong again. You can't provide a reasonable explanation, nor can you put up a valid argument."




Oh, I get it. You're one of those guys who is always right. Just because you can't understand my explanation, I don't have one. Is that it? I pretty clearly gave my explanation. The pistol AR is too big and unwieldy to make a good pistol, and they aren't as stable as a rifle. Whether you agree with me or not, that IS an explanation. But, I guess only your opinion counts. I've spent the last 40+ years with firearms, shooting them, collecting them, trading them. The foregoing is my opinion of why the pistol AR is about as useful as a mare's leg. Now, you don't have to agree with me (just like I don't have to agree with you), but when you start lobbing personal insults because you don't like my opinion, then you show yourself to be exactly what you are.

IM SORRY LOL

Not one person has ever intended to replace a handgun with a pistol ar. It would be to replace an SBR. I dont even know where to begin on "they aren't as stable as a rifle" as that makes... no sense. But if for some reason you arbitrarily hate pistol ar15s but not sbrs. You do you I guess. I just wonder if maybe you never understood that nobody has ever intended to replace a handgun with one... that is not even part of any debate.

For giggles or because I did not understand: Please explain how a braced pistol ar15 is not "as stable" as the exact same everything but with a stock, so as a short barreled rifle.

But its wrong. An AR pistol is as stable as a 16 inch barreled AR as long as its handled correctly and practiced with. I really could give 2 **I miss Obama** about how long you've owned guns or how long you've collected. Your statements in the beginning about AR pistols being inaccurate and clumsy were based on NOTHING except your own inexperience with them. The point of the AR pistol is not to make it a viable CC gun, or a pistol like a glock 17. The point is to have a firearm similar to that of a SBR without it being a NFA firearm. Rifle caliber, high velocity rounds, 30 round mag. Duh.

Me,after owning a Stoner converted to semi only in the late '70s,really don't care for the modern take on this style of rifle/whatever.Would like to as a question regarding them if possible.

Maybe I'm just a wimp,or too picky,but I've always had an issue with the balance on these arms for distance shooting.Being a dinosaur,the ultimate long range semi auto format was the Garand,and when I had good eyes shooting was done at 600-1000 yards.We'd crimp the enbloc clips to hold 5 rounds,and shoot 10 shot strings.Firing stock 8 round clips was reserved for plinking and running in a fresh barrel.The weight lost from even shooting a five round clip produced a distinct weight shift in the rifle,and burning thru a dozen or so 8 round clips had the zero wandering all over the place.With the (sorry!) fad for big box mags,how do you adjust for the weight loss shooting 30 cartridges,and do the barrels wear out as fast on the current rifles/whatever as I have seen barrels wear out in the early '90s when all that lovely Combloc ordinance came in?

"But its wrong. An AR pistol is as stable as a 16 inch barreled AR as long as its handled correctly and practiced with."




First off, if it were as stable as a 16 inch barreled AR, why would you have it have to be "handled correctly and practiced with". Either it is as stable or it isn't. The pistol braces I have seen are made to allow the forearm to pass through a strap and do not shoulder as solidly as a normal adjustable shoulder stock. But, then again, that is just me voicing my opinion, and apparently the only opinion that counts is yours. In any event, I see you made the very adult decision to list me as someone you would not deal with. I guess I hurt your feelings by not liking your pet. Well, no big loss as far as I'm concerned. I'll just trade with the rest of the fine folks on here, like I've been doing for the last few years.

Please look back to my original question, how did it turn into a pissing match

don't know how,duckin.I'd really like answer to my posed question,would help me understand the facination with that groundhog rifle,lol!

"Please look back to my original question, how did it turn into a pissing match"



Not sure. Voiced my opinion and apparently some just can't handle that. Fragile ego or something.

[quote=dustydog] don't know how,duckin.I'd really like answer to my posed question,would help me understand the facination with that groundhog rifle,lol! [/quote
To answer your question best i can dusty a ar platform is the legos of the gun world, it can be personalized, used for many styles of shooting and not limited to 30 rnd mags.i just find them fun to shoot and barrel life for the average shooter can be 10k rounds

Every firearm should be handled correctly and practiced with. Should be obvious for someone who supposedly has 40+ years of firearms experience. The maxim brace shoulders very well, as do several other brands. I listed you as someone who I won't deal with because you spout foolish statements with no facts to back it up. Smacks of ignorance. Guess what? I don't own any ARs of any variant currently. I'm an AK person. But I've been through enough of them and run enough to know what works. Making a blanket statement about a platform nor working and giving zero facts about why is stupid. You didn't hurt any feelings, I just have an extreme prejudice against FUDDS.

A sbr has a good amount of weaknesses compared to a 16/20 inch rifle but mechanical accuracy is not one of them. With modern optics to remove the sight radius difference a sbr will shoot just as well as a 16 inch ar15. In fact there is less barrel whip and they can out shoot many government profile. Sbrs have reduced lethality due to velocity loss, less dwell time, more parts wear due to overgassing but calling them "inaccurate" is absolute fudd lore. You might say "inaccurate" because the velocity loss reduces max range but at 100 yards many pistols will out shoot a 20 inch.

"Every firearm should be handled correctly and practiced with. Should be obvious for someone who supposedly has 40+ years of firearms experience."




Of course they should, but I was giving you credit for understanding. My error. Your response indicated that additional effort was required to make it as stable as a 16 inch barreled AR. Not sure if that's due to your lack of understanding, or your inability to convey a cogent thought. Oh well, no matter. As to not dealing with me, that's a non issue. I don't deal with self proclaimed know-it-alls that need to resort to name calling when someone holds a different opinion. And, go ahead if you must have the last word, as I am done with you.

I wasn't talking about inherent accuracy, but rather practical accuracy.

I have SBRs and AR pistols. The difference between the two is that (most) pistol braces allow you to strap them to your arm OR shoulder them, like a stock. Look up the SBA3 brace, that one adjusts the length of pull in the exact same way a stock does.

If you see how a SBR might have a place then you must have some inkling that AR pistols give you the same advantages of a SBR without the paperwork and other nonsensical restrictions.


Edit: what in the hell is practical accuracy?

He has no idea.

If you can get a 2 moa group that is more than practical enough for any defensive rifle lol but you know every gun on the internet is 1 moa and everyone benches 400 pounds.

+1 to the question at the end. Accuracy is all inclusive. No such thing as practical or impractical accuracy, it is a measurement.

Thanks,duckin! Referencing the lego idea is probably the clearest way I've heard,sort of what I and others did with cheap Mausers (yes kids,they were cheap at one time) "back in the day".


Wow,the whole thread sorta took a strange turn from its originally sorta whimsical bend,didn't it?

"Edit: what in the hell is practical accuracy?"




Seriously? None of you have ever heard that term? Wow. Inherent accuracy tells us that a 2 inch barreled revolver is probably just as accurate as a 6 inch barreled revolver. Practical accuracy is where the 6 inch barreled revolver will shine. Longer sight radius, more weight out front, etc. will make it easier to shoot and be more accurate with. Can't believe a bunch of "gun guys" never heard of that.

Ok sight radius doesn't matter in 2018 because optics are a thing, and we are talking about rifles.

Ya'll guys get back to the original post,willya! I'm trying to overcome my prejudice of what I consider a inadequate cartridge group in a over complicated arms family AND LEARN SOMETHING.

GEEZE,EVER HEAR THE TERM " ANGELS DANCING ON THE HEAD OF A PIN"?

No, I’ve never known anyone to use the term “practical accuracy”. I did, however, just pull an internet search and I found a couple of articles comparing practical accuracy and precision shooting. They basically say that this is the difference between shooting from a bench with a lead sled and shooting from behind cover, or running around, or shooting from a tree stand.

In my circle, we’ve chosen to credit this “practical accuracy” to the shooters ability to shoot in less than perfect conditions, or under stress, and not the firearm itself.


But let’s get back to how you’re using the term. Choosing the correct ammunition for an AR pistol or SBR will have far more impact on the accuracy of the rifle (or “pistol”) than the sight radius of the iron sights (supposing you’re not using a red dot or variable optic primarily) ever would. As for other factors; carriers, buffer weight, springs and muzzle device choices (not to mention piston systems) tame the mighty 5.56x45 cartridge to the point that you really can’t tell the difference between shooting any number of different barrel lengths.

You could even make the argument that, practically speaking, a SBR or AR “pistol” is much easier to maneuver around tight spaces...or carry around all day.
Smaller barrel lengths can even provide better terminal ballistics with 5.56 under the right circumstances.

I feel this is the right time to AGAIN confirm that you are able to shoulder a pistol brace.

What everyone here is trying to tell you is that your belief that an AR “pistol” is useless doesn’t stand to reason. You can’t fill a cup that’s already full, I guess.

Which cartridge is inadequate? if you don't like one, pick another. The arms family is quite simple.

Sorry sir, I dont use made up fudd lore and terms to describe anything. Next you will tell me a shotgun is the best HD weapon and racking it during a home invasion will scare away the entire mafia to Italy. I'm gonna pull out of this. It gets hard explaining something simple in so much detail. It's like trying to explain how to cook noodles in more than 3 steps, it just hurts trying to dumb it down more than "this=that". Plus Koen seems to be better with words.

I will however say again. There is no measurement difference in using a different word in front of an absolute. Accuracy is a measurement, flat out. Much like adding democratic in front of the word socialism does not make it any less of a form of socialism. Adding practical in front of accuracy is just making up terms. If that's what "gun guys" are supposed to do, I'll gladly not be one and continue by not blaming a platform for my failings.

Who cares. Like what you like... Shoot as good as you can.

Dusty... ARs and AKs are lightweight, accurate and fun to shoot for many. ARs come in a gazzilion calibers and can be made in half a gazzilion more. Basically they are the Chevy SB of the gun world. Most are 5.56 or 7.62x39 (AKs).

Thanks cash

This all day. While I may disagree with folks on one thing or another from time to time, the above rings true. Name calling, trolling and arguing for the sake of arguing is getting long in the tooth. Everyone seems to like to dig their heels in and demand they are correct, and never look outside their own point of view because they would rather be right then be good.

cash, please take a seat..........comfy yet?


Here goes..............thank you,Cash...........hope you didn't fall over reading that,lol!

like I said,trying to learn something. Having spent most of my life shooting offhand or prone,occasionally seated with sling and knee rest,I have my own "best rifle/handgun" notions.While I don't care for the Ar/Ak platforms,I would like to understand them better,and understand the motivations for choosing either.

Didn't I just answer that?

Indeed. In some ways similar to experiments I did back in the '80s with a single shot rifle with a 1 1/4" barrel in .308,chamber bored to .600" / 3" and a hella lot of hand made chamber inserts in some of the most downright silly chamberings imaginable.

Decided I’ll add my two cents.

There are never enough ARs! I used to buy them but then simply got factory amorer certification and can’t stop building them: SPRs, pistols, mil-specs, competition, 9s, etc. I tried building uppers to limit the AR count in the safe but found out I can’t look at an upper w/o lower. )))

On the subject of AR pistols: I own both SBRs and pistols, and while SBRs are way more convinient than pistols, traveling with pistols is easier and requires less amount of preparations.

My Mk18 clone shoots as accurate as it’s full length brothers within 100 m range which is pretty much the extent of CQB engagements but maneuverability you get indoors and inside the vehicle is unparalleled. 10.3/10.5 inch is the shortest length I would recommend though. I tried 8 inch but the gun is way too unstable and uncomfortable to shoot.

I owned AKs, MP5s, newer toys such as MPX, Tavors, Vectors - IMHO nothing beats ergos and versatility of an AR.

Thanks ak66 10 inch was bout the size pistol i was considering for my next one

Some tinkering...

.45acp version



.460 Rowland version



All NFA items are 100% legal

Reviving an old thread here. To answer the OP's question, you will always need at least one more. Occasion for reviving the thread is I finally finished my AR pistol when my stamp arrived and picked up my can last Thursday. Hadn't really given any thought to building a pistol until the debate that erupted when someone said they were useless. Without reigniting that fire, it got me interested, I did the research and decided that a pistol had a place in my toolkit. So, here it is. An 8" AeroPrecision build in .300 blackout with SBA3 brace, Vortex Venom dot and SF SOCOM 300 SPS can. Good post, thanks OP and VAGT!