A member PMed this. What do you guys think?:


Hey, not trying to be a jerk, but I have noticed there are a lot of guys posting semi-auto shotguns, VEPR/Saiga's with folding stocks and drum mags and 12rd mags. In ref to the below law, its little known in va, but this is considered a felony to have a 12rd mag with it. The posters posting photos of them together is proof of the crime. Thought maybe a warning should be said. I have heard people argue that the law is gray on the new guns, but sure reads to me that its still a crime. I myself did not know until I bought a VEPR and looked it up. Unless a lawyer wants to try to create case law, it might be best to not attempt to violate it. Thanks for the great site. -35OPS

§ 18.2-308.8. Importation, sale, possession or transfer of Striker 12's prohibited; penalty.

It shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, possess or transfer the following firearms: the Striker 12, commonly called a "streetsweeper," or any semi-automatic folding stock shotgun of like kind with a spring tension drum magazine capable of holding twelve shotgun shells. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony.

(1993, c. 888.)

The law is pretty clear (not that it makes any sense and clearly written by Brady bill-era politicians) on this. Folding stock shotgun + drum mag (over 12 rds) = illegal. Folding stock shotgun + 100 mag (non-drum) = legal.

Recommend deleting any posts and sending a PM to OP citing the law for folder/drum combos - for the greater good of the site.

JG

I read it as ANY semi-auto shotgun WITH a folding stock can not have any magazine with 12rds. 11rds GTG, 12rds=illegal.

I agree that the law is really poorly written in the "like kind" part and the "spring tension drum magazine part."

The gray area is, would a fixed stock semi-auto be able to accept any magazine capacity?

And, is the "spring tension drum magazine" strictly to drum magazines or do box magazines apply as well?

It really needs a clarification. With today's semi-auto technologies, its incredibly stupid that street sweepers and semi-auto AA-12's are banned at all.

I am 99.9% sure this only applies to drums. Not that ignorance is an excuse, but if you Google there are about 1,000,000 videos and pictures of folders with SGM mags, all for sale or in possession. Just the first one that popped up on YouTube:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1SfYmyxhTUw

I am an FFL and will clarify with my ATF agent, I agree its better safe than sorry, but I read that clearly as drum mag + folder = illegal.

This is a state law though for the state of VA. I am sure many of the other anti-gun states have similar laws as well for DD's. So all the hits you get on other videos and pics may not apply in those states.

It only applys here in VA in this case. It is not clear though if stick mags apply as well. Or again, if a fixed stock can have a drum mag. If you really want to analyze it, what about constructive possession? If you own a fixed stock semi auto AND a folder, you really could not have a drum that fits both, because that would be constructive possession. The reason this one is worse is because it is so broad.

Can a lawyer on here talk about this one? Can the VA AG clarify it? Can it be petitioned to the legislator to have the law removed because of its tremendous redundancy with the NFA?

I understand you're trying to be ultra cautious; but keep in mind that federal law supersedes state law, and it is all enforced by ATF. Unless you are blatantly breaking the law I would not be concerned about an off the wall law like that, most weird gun laws are "grey" as you stated, they do it that way on purpose so the enforcement official can use judgement. If you really want to be concerned, look at all the morons on this board doing stuff as flagrantly stupid as this text I got yesterday from somebody off this board. This is the reason I backed off of the gun business. It's just too dangerous and filled with stupidity:

WOW!!! ...I have heard of things that bad happening, but never have actually seen it. That's crazy stuff!

Are you suggesting that the ATF would say that people could own the combination anyway?

This is what I was thinking about ATF and Fed vs. the VA law:

It would then be a 10th amendment case right?

Commerce Clause

The provision of the U.S. Constitution that gives Congress exclusive power over trade activities among the states and with foreign countries and Indian tribes.

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3, of the Constitution empowers Congress "to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among several States, and with the Indian Tribes." The term commerce as used in the Constitution means business or commercial exchanges in any and all of its forms between citizens of different states, including purely social communications between citizens of different states by telegraph, telephone, or radio, and the mere passage of persons from one state to another for either business or pleasure.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Commerce+Clause

"Intrastate, or domestic, commerce is trade that occurs solely within the geographic borders of one state. As it does not move across state lines, intrastate commerce is subject to the exclusive control of the state."

So for the ATF to say that people can own them anyway because, the NFA trumps the VA law, (Being that the NFA defines Street Sweepers as DD's and already regulates them with a tax) they would have to prove that by VA banning them, it affects Inter-state commerce. A battle they would never fight, because its about "evil guns", which any gun not in the peoples hands is a win to them anyway.

The only way I could see them caring is that, I suppose it also would affect tax code enforcement in some way because it does not allow people to own Street Sweepers in VA and pay the Tax that the NFA is requesting, which is lost revenue for the DOJ. Which also affects inter-state commerce because the VA law does not allow Class 3 dealers to transfer these DD's into VA from another state.

Another point why they might not care, when doing a NFA transfer, the ATF examiners check to see if any state law prohibits ownership of the device/weapon in that state of transfer. So if they see that it is against state law, they would enforce that state law, not the federal law, by not allowing the transfer.

However, they do still pick and choose, as some states are working to nullify the NFA in their state lines and going as far as saying the state AG will protect the people of the state from ANY federal law. Which the US DOJ has a big problem with, however, they dismiss marijuana at the same time, because it is a political thing, depending on what way the administration is at that time.

In all of this though, SCOTUS ruled that a certain class of firearms cannot be banned from the people. However, the AWB, was somehow legal, and the NFA is somehow legal. Even with a "tax" that is like a poll tax, which the fed has fought against for "voter id", but not for a tax stamp.

This is something I have spent a lot of time learning about and studying when I got in the gun business and got my FFL. I am pretty comfortable with the rules and here are the cliffs notes:

1) The ATF is the only body to enforce gun laws. States may put guns laws on the books, but the individual ATF offices are pretty much tasked with enforcing those rules.
2) There is nobody actively looking for "lawbreakers". If you do something stupid (say, take a blatantly banned gun to a range or a gun show) then you're asking for it.
3) The police know less about gun laws than your average hobbiest. I doubt a VA Sheriff would do anything but place you in custody and call the ATF. And you likely will have broken ANOTHER law before he goes that far. Most cops are gun enthusiasts and if you are a CCW holder they are very unlikely to bust your balls unless you're being a prick.
4) ATF Agents know suprisingly little about gun laws. Its all about "intent" and essentially "case law". Thats where the ATF letters come into effect. They are the equivalent of "case law" in court - if there is a precedent, they follow it. Thats how we get cool things like the Sig Pistol Brace. Nobody knows until you ask.
5) The ATF tasks FFL's with pretty much upholding the laws, AND, using their best judgement. I am immune from prosecution for refusing to do business with anybody or report anybody. My ATF agent said in no uncertain words "If you don't like the way a person looks, smells, talks, anything, turn them away". Its a different mindset than our "customer is always right" culture. Of course, YMMV with your ATF agent. FWIW I've been in court against another FFL agent and the Judge didn't even know what an FFL was, and was asking us both what the rules were. Its a crazy judicial system. (and funny aside, the bailiff came over to me afterwards to ask for my business card cause he wanted a new Sig ha-ha).

Look I'm no legal expert, but this law is referring to street sweepers and like weapons the ak style shotgun is not the same style of weapon.

The Striker and Streetsweeper are difficult to procure in the United States of America as they were declared as destructive devices under the National Firearms Act with no sporting purpose by Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen in 1994 and their transfer and ownership is regulated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).

Armsel Striker—this is Hilton Walker's first design and note that one had to wind the drum before firing the shotgun.
Armsel Protecta—An improved version of the Armsel Striker. The need to wind the drum before firing was removed and the weapon's reliability was improved.[3]
Armsel Protecta Bulldog—An extremely shortened, stockless version of the Armsel Protecta. It is intended for building entry and vehicular duties.[3]
Sentinel Arms Striker-12—A fully licensed and improved copy of the Armsel Striker for the American market made by Sentinel Arms Co. It was available with an 18 inch barrel and a 7 inch stockless version.[5]
Cobray/SWD Streetsweeper—A lower-end clone of the Armsel Striker, notable as having a limited parts commonality to the original weapons system.[5]
Cobray/SWD Ladies Home Companion—A reduced caliber version of the Streetsweeper. The triggergroup is attached to a .410 bore or .45/70 Government drum and barrel.[9]

or any semi-automatic folding stock shotgun of like kind with a spring tension drum magazine capable of holding twelve shotgun shells.

The part like kind is referring to the variants of street sweepers made by other companies. The Virginia Law is just piggy backing off the federal law so it can be enforced in state court.

I don't see the issue with drum mags as the law specifically states 12 round magazines, not 12 or more. 11 should be legal, 13 or more should be legal as long as it's not 12 with a folding stock.

Kind of a thread revival, but it states "capable of holding 12"
Which, of couse, a 13rd mag is capable of holding 12, where an 11rd mag is not.

.02